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	<title>Comments on: Stieg Larsson and The F-Word</title>
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	<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887</link>
	<description>the virtual home of steve mosby</description>
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		<title>By: reviews and views &#171; Scandinavian Crime Fiction</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-90112</link>
		<dc:creator>reviews and views &#171; Scandinavian Crime Fiction</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 21:28:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-90112</guid>
		<description>[...] if artless serial killer entertainments. Steve Mosby has a thoughtful (and yes, somewhat irritated) response to Newman&#8217;s article, as well as a longer examination of the wider issues which picked up quite a bit of traffic from [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] if artless serial killer entertainments. Steve Mosby has a thoughtful (and yes, somewhat irritated) response to Newman&#8217;s article, as well as a longer examination of the wider issues which picked up quite a bit of traffic from [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bernadette</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-90056</link>
		<dc:creator>Bernadette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Oct 2009 10:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-90056</guid>
		<description>Great response to a disturbing article Steve. 

I did love the Larsson books (all 3 of them) even with their faults. I liked the fact that Lisbeth&#039;s emotional reaction to her rape and torture was very realistic. The actions she took (revenge torture and breast implants) were exaggerated (&#039;cos it&#039;s a work of fiction for heaven&#039;s sake not a feminist essay) but that kind of contradictory behaviour is quite believable. I&#039;ve done volunteer work for a crisis hotline and I&#039;ve seen women (and men for that matter) respond in an equally contradictory ways to being abused. Of course she&#039;s the embodiment of every abused woman&#039;s wish fulfillment when she gets her own back on her attacker but if that was all she&#039;d done she&#039;d have been a caricature. Her continuing insecurity made her far more realistic and, for me anyway, more lovable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great response to a disturbing article Steve. </p>
<p>I did love the Larsson books (all 3 of them) even with their faults. I liked the fact that Lisbeth&#8217;s emotional reaction to her rape and torture was very realistic. The actions she took (revenge torture and breast implants) were exaggerated (&#8216;cos it&#8217;s a work of fiction for heaven&#8217;s sake not a feminist essay) but that kind of contradictory behaviour is quite believable. I&#8217;ve done volunteer work for a crisis hotline and I&#8217;ve seen women (and men for that matter) respond in an equally contradictory ways to being abused. Of course she&#8217;s the embodiment of every abused woman&#8217;s wish fulfillment when she gets her own back on her attacker but if that was all she&#8217;d done she&#8217;d have been a caricature. Her continuing insecurity made her far more realistic and, for me anyway, more lovable.</p>
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		<title>By: the left room&#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nobody was harmed in the making of this crime novel</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-90042</link>
		<dc:creator>the left room&#187; Blog Archive &#187; Nobody was harmed in the making of this crime novel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Oct 2009 19:53:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-90042</guid>
		<description>[...] blog The F-Word about Stieg Larsson&#8217;s The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, which I blogged about here, and which, if nothing else, goes to show that some people will see &#8220;sadistic misogyny&#8221; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] blog The F-Word about Stieg Larsson&#8217;s The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo, which I blogged about here, and which, if nothing else, goes to show that some people will see &#8220;sadistic misogyny&#8221; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: john connnor</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-89959</link>
		<dc:creator>john connnor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 19:38:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-89959</guid>
		<description>Well, I thought it was absolute trash, Steve. Nothing new under the sun, I know, but there&#039;s nothing new in TGWTDT, for sure. Plus, I couldn&#039;t get my head round the moral choices the characters made. Western europe&#039;s worst serial killer. How many women did he kill, in such horrifying circumstances, over the years? It was a staggering number, I thought. They all have families over in Eastern Europe, loved ones, relatives etc. They all have people perhaps looking for them, yet our hero decides on a cover up in order to spare some single woman further distress? Doesn&#039;t really work. It&#039;s difficult balancing the real and the absurd when you write shitty entertainment fiction (don&#039;t I know)but those are legitimate standards to judge it by. Just as it&#039;s legit to baulk at the Da Vinci Code because most of the &#039;ingeneous&#039; plotting therein is based on facts or science (forensic science included)that would not be available in reality. Personally, i don&#039;t understand the British publisher fascination with Scan fiction at all. There&#039;s nothing worth reading in most of it. And i still hold out a hope that we can actually - if we all try hard enough and are responsible enough - breathe some life into crime fiction, make it somehow relevant, instead of an endless parade of entertaining and titillating violence and sex. I always try hard to justify it (my own rubbish included)but it&#039;s getting hard the older I get. Roger Scrutton (a philosopher I never liked or sympathised with)once wrote somethign about the point of art being to breathe life into cliche (and not snigger at the cliches), or, I would add, to wallow in them. You have to step back and look at thr ubbish that is being published and think about that, I think. As I say, my own rubbish included.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I thought it was absolute trash, Steve. Nothing new under the sun, I know, but there&#8217;s nothing new in TGWTDT, for sure. Plus, I couldn&#8217;t get my head round the moral choices the characters made. Western europe&#8217;s worst serial killer. How many women did he kill, in such horrifying circumstances, over the years? It was a staggering number, I thought. They all have families over in Eastern Europe, loved ones, relatives etc. They all have people perhaps looking for them, yet our hero decides on a cover up in order to spare some single woman further distress? Doesn&#8217;t really work. It&#8217;s difficult balancing the real and the absurd when you write shitty entertainment fiction (don&#8217;t I know)but those are legitimate standards to judge it by. Just as it&#8217;s legit to baulk at the Da Vinci Code because most of the &#8216;ingeneous&#8217; plotting therein is based on facts or science (forensic science included)that would not be available in reality. Personally, i don&#8217;t understand the British publisher fascination with Scan fiction at all. There&#8217;s nothing worth reading in most of it. And i still hold out a hope that we can actually &#8211; if we all try hard enough and are responsible enough &#8211; breathe some life into crime fiction, make it somehow relevant, instead of an endless parade of entertaining and titillating violence and sex. I always try hard to justify it (my own rubbish included)but it&#8217;s getting hard the older I get. Roger Scrutton (a philosopher I never liked or sympathised with)once wrote somethign about the point of art being to breathe life into cliche (and not snigger at the cliches), or, I would add, to wallow in them. You have to step back and look at thr ubbish that is being published and think about that, I think. As I say, my own rubbish included.</p>
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		<title>By: stevemosby</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-89896</link>
		<dc:creator>stevemosby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Sep 2009 07:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-89896</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Donna!

And Kevin, I agree totally about the stats, which I found slightly out-of-place apart from anything else. You can argue with these statistics all day long, as there are usually biases and nuances within the various studies, but the fact is they&#039;re not particularly relevant to the book anyway, as it&#039;s ultimately a far-fetched serial killer story. I don&#039;t doubt Larsson&#039;s real-life credentials or sentiments, but I think the inclusion of those stats is both jarring and a little misleading. 

While misogyny may well express itself along an escalating continuum, the novel takes place so far to one side that the events are almost fantastical, so quoting stats from the everyday world feels like an attempt to ground the story that never quite lands. What percentage of Swedish men, for example, are multi-millionaire industrialists with an elaborately constructed torture chamber under their house? I&#039;m guessing it&#039;s not a widespread problem. For me, Larsson never makes the link from his story back to &quot;everyday&quot; male violence that might have added an extra level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Donna!</p>
<p>And Kevin, I agree totally about the stats, which I found slightly out-of-place apart from anything else. You can argue with these statistics all day long, as there are usually biases and nuances within the various studies, but the fact is they&#8217;re not particularly relevant to the book anyway, as it&#8217;s ultimately a far-fetched serial killer story. I don&#8217;t doubt Larsson&#8217;s real-life credentials or sentiments, but I think the inclusion of those stats is both jarring and a little misleading. </p>
<p>While misogyny may well express itself along an escalating continuum, the novel takes place so far to one side that the events are almost fantastical, so quoting stats from the everyday world feels like an attempt to ground the story that never quite lands. What percentage of Swedish men, for example, are multi-millionaire industrialists with an elaborately constructed torture chamber under their house? I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s not a widespread problem. For me, Larsson never makes the link from his story back to &#8220;everyday&#8221; male violence that might have added an extra level.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Wignall</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-89871</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Wignall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-89871</guid>
		<description>Interesting.  I was ambivalent about the book.  Read it, which is saying something, did think there were sections that could&#039;ve been cut, didn&#039;t think the central characters were particularly original - in fact, Salander did come across as a bit Lara Croft have-your-cake-and-eat-it cartoonish.  But I still enjoyed the book and I&#039;m not sure why.

Have to say, I thought it very old-fashioned and didn&#039;t think it was particularly explicit in sex or violence.  I did find the stats that punctuated it slightly weird, particularly having been to Sweden, and I thought it was trying to paint a picture of male sexual violence that&#039;s out of all proportion to reality.

Having said all of that, and despite thinking that Newman&#039;s article was the sort of thing that gives feminism a bad name (for goodness sake, she implies the settlement of his estate was somehow misogynistic, rather than a legal oversight by a man who didn&#039;t expect to die), I&#039;m reluctant to include sexual violence in my work because I do think there&#039;s a danger of veering over into titilation.  And I do think, if the author was interested in female empowerment he&#039;d have had Salander embark on an Erin-Brokovich style bid to prove her mental competence (never properly explained in the book) rather than a Charles-Bronson-style vengeance attack.

Oh, finally, just to show that Newman is a fool.  I know a woman who had a very traumatic upbringing who subsequently had breast augmentation and felt exactly the same sentiments as Salander.  I don&#039;t understand it, but I&#039;ve never been in that situation - how presumptuous of Newman to assume she can speak on behalf of all such women.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting.  I was ambivalent about the book.  Read it, which is saying something, did think there were sections that could&#8217;ve been cut, didn&#8217;t think the central characters were particularly original &#8211; in fact, Salander did come across as a bit Lara Croft have-your-cake-and-eat-it cartoonish.  But I still enjoyed the book and I&#8217;m not sure why.</p>
<p>Have to say, I thought it very old-fashioned and didn&#8217;t think it was particularly explicit in sex or violence.  I did find the stats that punctuated it slightly weird, particularly having been to Sweden, and I thought it was trying to paint a picture of male sexual violence that&#8217;s out of all proportion to reality.</p>
<p>Having said all of that, and despite thinking that Newman&#8217;s article was the sort of thing that gives feminism a bad name (for goodness sake, she implies the settlement of his estate was somehow misogynistic, rather than a legal oversight by a man who didn&#8217;t expect to die), I&#8217;m reluctant to include sexual violence in my work because I do think there&#8217;s a danger of veering over into titilation.  And I do think, if the author was interested in female empowerment he&#8217;d have had Salander embark on an Erin-Brokovich style bid to prove her mental competence (never properly explained in the book) rather than a Charles-Bronson-style vengeance attack.</p>
<p>Oh, finally, just to show that Newman is a fool.  I know a woman who had a very traumatic upbringing who subsequently had breast augmentation and felt exactly the same sentiments as Salander.  I don&#8217;t understand it, but I&#8217;ve never been in that situation &#8211; how presumptuous of Newman to assume she can speak on behalf of all such women.</p>
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		<title>By: Donna</title>
		<link>http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887&#038;cpage=1#comment-89862</link>
		<dc:creator>Donna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Sep 2009 19:14:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/?p=887#comment-89862</guid>
		<description>Great post Steve. Totally agree, and the blogpost you refer to made me roll my eyes. And I&#039;m a woman. I could go into a rant, but I won&#039;t :o)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post Steve. Totally agree, and the blogpost you refer to made me roll my eyes. And I&#8217;m a woman. I could go into a rant, but I won&#8217;t <img src='http://www.theleftroom.co.uk/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':o' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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